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Tuesday, October 26, 2010

"Coming out of Egypt" -A Testimony of Transition


Article submitted by blog visitor: Sonlight29

Some people have asked to hear "real-life experiences" from those who've left Cornerstone.  Here's mine.  I hope it helps those who've left know that they are not "losing it" when they go through the peaks & valleys.  And I hope it gives courage to those who feel God's tug on their hearts and know it's time to leave, but are afraid & questioning.  It was definitely one of the hardest things I've ever had to do, and I would really rather not live the last few years over again, but I am thankful for what I have learned through them and for the person that this process has helped me become.

As background, so the readers of this realize I am not a "fly-by-night" type of person:  I was raised in church.  Have a great, Godly family.   I've been saved for almost 40 years now.  I've been in active ministry for almost 30 of those years.  My parents were active in ministry & it was not uncommon for us to spend lots of personal time with the Pastor of our church and his family.  I know how a Godly, caring shepherd should act because I saw them first-hand, when they were not on the platform.  I think my solid, Christian background made it possible to excuse away what I now see as the quiet nudgings of the Holy Spirit when red flags would come up.  I could easily separate "the office of the Pastor" from "the man" because my parents had taught me to respect men of God.  However, the men of God that I grew up around were the same "in the office" and as "the man", so I did not have to deal with the discrepancies in their lives.  I am not at all saying that these men were perfect!  But there is a difference between being human and being immoral.

I went to Cornerstone for almost 14 years.  I served actively in a very high position for most of those years.  I saw a lot of "inside" stuff, so to speak.  But then again, most of the
 
things that have come to light about behaviors there, I did not know until after I left.  I'm not sure if "they" were good at hiding it, or if my ingrained sense of trust for church leadership blinded me to it.  Once I found out what was going on behind the scenes, many things that just didn't make sense throughout my time there, made perfect sense.  I could never connect the dots until I was out of that environment.  Like the song says, "I can see clearly now".  The last year or so, I have been studying the Israelites leaving Egypt and it parallels the process of leaving an abusive church almost perfectly.  I will be referring to that ofen in my story.

I and my family are very conservative.  We were often ridiculed for that during our years at the church.  However, we know there are some things that are not "salvation issues" and are based on personal conviction.  (Please read Titus 1:6-9 for the qualifications of leadership in the church...they are different than what is required for someone who is not active in ministry)  After the first arrest, we stayed, believing that our Pastor would be truthful with us.  After the 2nd arrest, we wanted to leave, but stayed, trying to stand on the fact that not everyone has the same convictions we do.  We were disappointed in him to say the least, but we believed he would change & we extended grace.  Then came the 3rd arrest....

My heart was broken.  I sat in my car crying (and my house crying, and private areas in the church building crying...) & calling out to God, the full reality of the fact that my Pastor cared more about himself than he ever would care about me or my family was sinking in.  There were so many things behind the scenes....little things (& a few big things), that I just dismissed saying "Our personalities clash" or "He's not somebody I would choose for a friend, but I can still respect him as a man of God"...  I could not ignore it anymore.  He did not love me.  He did not love my family.  I was devastated.  My family & I prayed about what to do.  Leaving, for us, was a huge decision....one not to be taken lightly.  We did not want to make an emotional decision.  We took time.  We fasted & prayed.  And God clearly spoke.  Those red flags & the still, small Voice were obvious now.  We knew what we had to do. 

Just like Pharaoh with the Israelites - he made it seem like they were free to leave, but when they actually left, he chased them down to kill them.  Many people wonder why the Maus' or Martinez' don't speak out about what they've gone through.  I know them personally & would not wish what has happened to them in their leaving on anyone.  I think it stands as a testament to their true character, that when they could have trashed the names of MP & RP and exposed them for who they truly are, even as those men were slandering them, instead they followed Exodus 14:14 "The Lord shall fight for you, and you shall hold your peace".

When I left, I expected that all would be hunky-dory & I could now get on with my life.  Even the bad things they said about me and my family, & did to us, rolled off my back (most of it).  I thought, "This is great.  Time to get on with living for God".  Then I entered the wilderness...  Like I said, I have been a Christian a long time, raised in charismatic churches, so I never thought the foundations of my very faith would be shaken.  I did not realize how subtly I had become like the Israelites.  Over my years at Cornerstone, I had come to depend on the Pastor and not God, just as they had come to depend on Pharaoh.  God needed to get me back to depending on Him.  It was not pretty...

I still went to a church.  I was still in ministry.  I still read my Bible & prayed.  I did all the things I knew I was "supposed" to do, but in my heart, I felt like I was dying.  I had to deal with the fact that I was betrayed by someone that I should have been able to trust.  I had to deal with the fact that I lost almost every single friend I had in one fell swoop.  I had to re-learn proper doctrine.  So many things that I remembered yelling "Amen" to, were not scriptural...and I had to deal with the fact that I had allowed myself to get so far away from reading & studying the Bible on my own that I was easily persuaded to believe the falsities.  I felt like I was being stripped down to the bare wood...I was raw...I questioned whether God even truly loved me.  I knew in my head that He did, but I could no longer feel it or see it.  How did I get to this place, this wilderness???  My belief system is strong.  I've been a Christian almost my whole life.  My testimony is not how God saved me out of awful circumstances, but instead how He kept me.  How did "I" get to this place of questioning every thing that I believed?  ....   It was God.  He took me there, just as He took the Israelites through the wilderness.

He had to strip away the layers of wrong, so that He could start building from the sure Foundation that was deep inside.  He had to get me to the place where I depended on Him and Him alone It is a major paradigm shift, but it is necessary in everyone who comes out of an abusive church.  It is ugly...and it hurts...and you may feel like your whole world is falling apart...BUT you will come out on the other side, if you just hold onto Him through it all.  There are varying degrees to this pruning process, depending on how involved you were at the church, & how much false doctrine from them you carried in your heart, but every single person will go through some type of wilderness experience at some point.  For me, it lasted almost 6 months...for others it may be weeks or a year.

Egypt was described in 2 Kings 18:21 as a splintered reed that "pierces a man's hand and wounds him if he leans on it".  There is no getting around it.  Anyone who has ever been in an abusive church will be wounded.  It is not a sign of weakness.  It is the nature of the beast.  You "should" be able to lean on your local church body.  You "should" be able to trust the leadership there not to hurt you.  But an abusive church is like Egypt....when you lean on it, as you "should" be able to do, it pierces you...when you trust the leadership, like you "should" be able to do, they wound you.
  God will repair you, He will help you, He will bring you lovingly back to Himself.  But there is a healing process to go through, and sometimes that process feels like it is tearing you apart instead of healing.  It's like a broken bone that must be set before it can heal properly.  The setting process is painful, but it is necessary so that true healing can take place.

There may even come a time when you think "I feel so horrible right now.  It wasn't so bad there; maybe I'll go back".  Resist that temptation!  When looking at the story of the Israelites in Ex.14:11-12, even they wanted to go back to Egypt rather than go through the process of the wilderness.  We, as outsiders, can look at that & say "You all are crazy!  Why would you ever go back there???".  But when you're living out the wilderness experience, it is natural (& normal) to want to go back to what is comfortable & familiar, even when you know it was bad for you.  I promise you, the rewards of persevering through this process are so worth it!

I have come out on the other side of the wilderness now.  I may look the same on the outside, but on the inside I am different.  I can feel a strength that I thought I had before, but it was based on wrong things, now it is based on the truth of God's Word and who He is to me personally, not who He is to the man on the platform.  I have a renewed sense of God's love for me.  And most importantly, I have true compassion for the leadership at Cornerstone.  My heart breaks for them, even after all they have done against me & my family.  Do I think that they will repent and turn around?  Not really...  I think they have had many, many opportunities to repent through the years and they choose not to.  God will not force anyone to do the right thing.    Do I regret my many years of service there?  No.  I learned a lot...mostly about what "not" to do. :-)   But I also met so many wonderful people in the congregation.  They are the ones I miss.   I also believe God will restore those relationships at some point.  I am excited about the future. To the outside observer, it may look like everything fell apart in my life, but circumstances change, it's who I am on the inside that is important.  When I get my spiritual life together, my natural life will follow suit.

So, I encourage you to listen to that still, small voice of the Holy Spirit.  Whether He is calling you out of Egypt or He is leading you through the wilderness process or He is celebrating your "graduation" into the Promised Land with you....You will not regret it!

70 comments:

  1. Honest and from the heart. Remember that Pharoah and his band of cronies drown in the sea when they tried to pursue! For those who are struggling to leave, just remember who has your back! Notice in Exodus 15:1 that the rider(mouthpiece of lies) is thrown down, but the vehicle (fill in the blank here)on which he rides is also destroyed. (Exodus 15:2 The LORD is my strength and song, and he is become my salvation: he is my God, and I will prepare him an habitation; my father's God, and I will exalt him.)

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  2. Is this a place to bash Cornerstone only or is there room for an Objective opinion here? I have been a Member for 14 years, and do not see how bashing would advance the move of God in the earth today. I did leave Cornerstone for a Few years and did not experience any of these emotions. I feel like what is the agenda here in this blog? I am not at Cornerstone to serve man I could give too sh##t about the Pitts. Jesus was the only infallible person on this earth and if the Pitt’s hurt your feeling Well get over it they don’t measure up and never will fact. I tried to read this to see is there any merit and don’t see any just bashing. Many lives have been changed and good has come from this church, but this would out way the bad so we don’t talk about that. Like are politics just point out the bad and we call are self’s Christens I don’t remember Jesus using the Bible for tearing down a church.

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  3. To Anonymous 7:06 PM said "You really shouldn't judge one's character."

    Yet you have judged the character of the 10,000+ visitors to this blog. We are to love each other as we love ourselves and as Christ first loved us. However, biblically, we are required to judge the "message" of every person who claims to minister the gospel. Those who hold office are required to live far above reproof and we are required to judge the leaders that we CHOOSE to partner with.

    I encourage you to read all of the articles on this blog, not hurriedly, and willing to let the Holy Spirit speak to you through them. Resist the temptation to "hear" a man's voice when you read. Listen for the Holy Spirit and refuse to let your inner pastoral parrot explain anything. Trust the Holy Spirit to help you discern.

    I will pray for you tonight. Clearly you are very upset and troubled to make such a love-less comment with such sweeping statements about the readers and authors of this blog. This blog does not have 10,000 visits because it is spreading rumor and venom. This blog exists to help those who have suffered abuse at c-stone(and others) and have already left. This blog also exists to assist those who still attend, but God is leading to leave.

    My prayer is that you no longer see your spiritual family as enemies when they disagree with your spiritual preferences. I do not consider you, Michael Pitts, or anyone else my enemy. I may disagree. I may have scriptural evidence that supports the posts on this blog, but I am not ever going to stop loving, caring, and praying for my spiritual family.

    God bless you Anonymous 7:06 PM. I truly mean that. Go in peace. May you know your savior in greater dimensions and depths every day. May you experience in even greater measures the fullness of the grace and liberty of Christ. Be blessed wherever God calls you, whether that be C-stone or somewhere else. You matter so incredibly much to God! You mean no less to me.

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  4. Dysfunction JunctionOctober 26, 2010 at 7:55 PM

    Sonlight29: First, I do not think any of us can say if Pastor loved us or not. When dealing with addictive behaviors, the behavior wins out. As you put it, it's the nature of the beast.

    Anon7:06 - if it is true that you do not care and were not effected, why are you here on this blog? You have just personified irony.
    Something brought you here and something elicited your response. By engaging, you have just made yourself part of this.

    Anon7:19 - I am happy to hear things are good for you! Sincerely. Your journey sounds productive. Your journey, however, isn't anyone else's journey. Some folks need to vent to "get over it" so to speak. Sometimes venting crosses a line. I am sorry that is how you experience some of these stories. I do not.

    There has been good in that house. I suspect there is still good in the house. There is good in everything. The devil himself appears as an angel of light.

    When the house leaders are active in sin, that doesn't affect your psyche at all? It does mine. Perhaps I am weaker than you.

    There is good in every family and that good will be felt for generations - even the most abusive families.

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  5. Anonymous at 7:19

    Wow thats powerful!!

    Powerful stupid.

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  6. Sonlight29
    God bless you for your testimony! I know it must have taken a lot for you to write it out, to be transparent. I personally found much comfort and encouragement through your words. May we all cross through the wilderness with as much grace and love in our hearts! Thank you!

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  7. I have never responded to any blog, or website, since I left c-stone several years ago. By way of background, allow me to say that I spent decades as a friend to Michael. As one who knew him, personally, it was disturbing to see a trend developing within him. It was subtle at first, but became increasingly obvious as time progressed. This trend? How he handled dissent within the "camp." In the beginning of our friendship, we would discuss those differing opinions that he faced regularly and he would handle it with grace; seeking to gain knowledge and experience from those who saw things differently. He would call me and discuss those divergent opinions, openly and forthrightly. We would often contemplate the merits of those opinions, and research the theology of their spiritual stance. As time went on, however, he became less open to those who held an opposing view. In the early years, there wasn't an attitude of animosity toward the differing opinion, it was just an uncomfortable desire to "not hear it." As time and seasons progressed, though, things began to change. He slowly became combative toward those who deviated from his belief system. At first it was privately combative, with his trusted confidantes; then it became an open animosity toward any who deviated from his commands, his beliefs, and his decreees. Michael no longer set aside dissent in a subtle, compassionate manner, now he openly rebuked it, as an assault on "his" authority, "his" vision & "his" next level. Finally, in this vain, two things happened that forced me to move on. 1) A very good friend lost their grandfather... who was much like a father to them. They missed church for several weeks, taking care of family business. During their absence, they received no call of condolence from any staff member, though several knew of the loss, because they worked in a high profile department and had to miss in order to go to the showing, the funeral, etc... When they returned, they were called into the office and rebuked for neglecting their duties. Wow! It was truly a cold hearted, couldn't care less about your crisis, mentality. 2)Soon after this, a very good friend dared to ask a question concerning the direction the church, and its ministries, were heading. He received a verbal tongue lashing, the likes of which I have seldom seen in Christianity. I called Michael on this, saying: "I am not comfortable with the way you are communicating with (******** insert name here). Well... that did not go over well, as you might imagine.
    These things, along with many other instances that have been revealed publicly, made it necessary to move on. I pray for MP and RP and their families regularly. I still love them immensely, but there came a time when changes had to be made, and made them I did.
    Thank you for this forum to share personal experiences. I am only sharing mine now, because as I was reading, I saw that several current members seem to have the same abrasive mentality toward dissent. I am reading words like... "you need psychiatric help" "keep whining throughout you miserable life" etc... It is really quite sad that this is the response to a very poignant, and moving, testimony from SonLight29. Thank you Sonlight for sharing your heart, and your experience. It will touch more lives than you can possibly imagine. You, and your family, are in my prayers.
    In Him,
    Aware

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  8. Very well written, and very powerful. I do wish you were more specific about things little and bad that you saw, because many people (especially those that are still emeshed) will find it to easy to write you off, because you couldn't even give any specific examples. I disagree with you on Maus and MArtinez (both of whom I liked as ministers, however where you give credit to their character, I find their silence to be an act of cowardness. They to are leaders of faith, but instead of standing up against what they saw as wrong and protecting the flock or even warning others of the dangers they saw, they choose to leave in silence and let the damage continue.

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  9. @Sam I am.
    I can tell you that these men (past ministers) where told to keep quite. I would assume that attorneys were involved in their leaving. Minister Maus even had his computer "wiped" after his meeting with RP. yet before he actually left. Need they suffer legal action for our sakes? I personally know one of them and He will say absolutely nothing to me about C-stone.

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  10. To confused no more:
    You make a good point regarding the ministers that have left. They are put in a very difficult position due to the Authoritarian method of leadership at Cornerstone. This is exactly how a dysfunctional family responds to those who no longer wish to participate in the dysfunction. They (the leadership) choose to discredit them because they have to explain "why" these good Pastors are no longer supporting their "vision."

    Former members also are attacked when they leave and when they finally decide to share their experiences. There comes a time when you can no longer ignore the "pink elephant" in the room. However, for many --it's much easier to choose to stay in denial and live with the familiar, than to deal with the fear of the unknown.

    Why does this church continue to attempt to silence those who leave? What is it about the former members' TESTIMONIES that pose such a threat to the future of their organization?

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  11. Dearest sonlight29,
    Thank you so much for your courage to share your testimony! I feel the love you have for this church's headship and members. My heart breaks when I hear of others questioning the love that you or any of us former cornerstonians have for these people. It is the love of Christ that moves me to love in spite of. It is that love that lives strong in my heart that gives me great compassion for those who are still a part of this abusive establishment. I too have friends, former friends, and even family that have remained behind. I chose as you did to press forward and to reach back for those who want to be free. While others are still deciding what they should do, I knew my obedience to the Father was most important, just as you and your family did. I commend you for your obedience.

    In terms of the Maus and Martinez families remaining quiet. Wow! Their leaving speaks volumes in itself. We all know the saying, "actions speak louder than words." Sometimes one person's courage becomes contagious and causes others to move on what his/her heart is saying. Peer pressure still exists and definitely for adults. I too felt the pressure to stay based on what others would think or say. I was and am treated like an "exhile". I am one of the former members that has been blackballed, "but God." He alone is the Lord of my life and I yield to Him. On occasions with trembling, but none the less I yeild. As others see through the smoke screen and make their way out, they are looking for those who have paved the path toward freedom, which is that pure walk with God.

    Thank you for standing with me and letting our word equal our actions. Yes, we have survived the journey and are moving towards thriving. Yes are hearts are purely seeking Gods face.

    It is my prayer that God will anoint this blog and allow it to be the catalyst for so many others to take hold of freedom. Father let your love shine through and your presence be manifested as people read. Let them behealed and delivered! In Jesus name!!!

    We all remember this song, "walls are coming down, prison doors are open, this is our year of jubilee."
    Let it be so in Jesus name!!!

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  12. Aware,
    For whatever reason I found this, "1) A very good friend lost their grandfather... who was much like a father to them. They missed church for several weeks, taking care of family business. During their absence, they received no call of condolence from any staff member, though several knew of the loss, because they worked in a high profile department and had to miss in order to go to the showing, the funeral, etc... When they returned, they were called into the office and rebuked for neglecting their duties."

    To be absolutely heartbreaking. I hope your friend is doing well.

    As far as Martinez/Maus' silence. I thought they were making an effort to be "obedient" by not speaking with anyone. I can't imagine lawyers involved. I don't honestly know.

    I just feel like it is loss after loss. Maybe that is why the story of the grandfather's death struck me. There is no true intimacy there. Not healthy intimacy, anyway.

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  13. Thank you, Anonymous at 11 p.m., my friend is doing quite well. This family is actively involved in a church that embraces relationships & transparency in a small group setting. They have re-focused their lives on Jesus Christ, and the simplicity of His gospel. I can honestly say that they have grown immensely & seem to be past the wounds of their yesterdays. It truly is a case where God has caused all things to work together for the good of those who love Him and are called according to His purpose.

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  14. I want to thank you all for reading this testimony and for the very supportive comments. I know there have been some unsupportive ones, too - that is definitely to be expected :-) But I appreciate the ones who are respectful even if you disagree.

    I did want to respond personally to Sam I Am (& any others who may be wondering about some specifics):
    I do totally understand your point of view. It is hard to lend credibility to someone who only offers ethereal reasons for leaving. I have been praying & thinking on this for several days. I do have a responsibility to protect my family through remaining anonymous, and offering too many details is not prudent. Also, I firmly believe in the purpose behind this blog - it is to encourage & support those who are leaving/have left an abusive church. I am concerned that listing off the red flags I saw will only turn this into an "airing of grievances" that can be easily dismissed as being from a "disgruntled former member", and that is not my desire, nor the desire of the blog author.

    I truly believe that the majority of the people at Cornerstone have pure hearts & are seeking God fully. People like that would have no reason to suspect evil of their leadership. Therefore character issues are often excused away because it just seems incredulous to us that someone would be leading a church and yet lacking in moral character. So, suffice it to say that, there were many instances throughout my years there where red flags were raised over character issues, but I quickly dismissed them, for this very reason.

    However, I will give a very important instance, which is pivotal, I believe, in deciding to stay or leave. The last few years that we were attending, I often left church services wondering who had made Michael mad that week (although sometimes they were outright named so I didn't have to wonder). His messages, more often than not, centered around who was attacking him or how people who were leaving/disagreeing were evil. I got tired of feeling like I had been beat up in the house of God.

    My children were also old enough to sit in service. I often had to sit them down specifically to tell them that what he had preached on that day was not really what the Bible said. His doctrine is wrong. That is a major red flag! I do not dispute the fact that he is a great orator. He can draw people in with his quick wit & humor. He knows how to move a crowd. But just because it sounds good does not mean that what he is saying is Biblical. For example, he thought he was my covering, and I was told not to make my own decisions about what God was telling me to do; I had to ask the leadership first to see if they agreed with what God was telling me or not. Then if they decided it was God, they would tell me what I could do about it. Study out the truth of Biblical covering, it is far from what he preaches. That's just 1 instance of wrong doctrine.

    So, again, I appreciate all the wonderful support here. My family and I are happy and moving on with what God has called us to do. It is exciting to once again be able to freely follow the voice of God in our lives & serve Him fully.

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  15. To Sam I Am,

    Thank you for the post, but I feel your comments were a bit harsh about the Maus's and Martinez's silence without knowing the facts.

    As Confused No More said, they were told to remain quiet and with the Maus's, they were specifically told not to have contact with any of the members. They, being people of character, honored that request and did not wish to make any trouble for anyone still attending. As part of the leadership of the church, they knew what the repercussion's of MP's wrath could be if anyone still attending CStone had contact with them, now "the outsiders".

    Furthermore, how were they to warn members of what they knew? What platform would they have to do that from? They were merely trying to sort through their own confusion, hurt and pain while protecting their family. I can't say as I blame them. I think they were exercising great patience, strength and wisdom. If anyone had reason to lash back, it would be them. Rich Maus was not even allowed to say any good-byes to the children whose lives he had sown into for years. The same goes for his wife.

    And Michael in his selfish anger did not allow the children or their parents any closure either. That at the very least is negligence on his part for the emotional care of those children. Anyone who knows about child development knows they need closure when someone significant leaves their lives. All I can say is wow, those poor children and who knows what lame explanation was given for Rich leaving if any.

    So, please do not dis those wonderful men & women of God who left with as much dignity as they were able given the poor send off of their "headship". I could see if they were all living in sin & were whisked away in silence, but c'mon really. Let's get real and look at who the coward is here. Michael didn't even have the courage to do things the right way and send them off with love and gratitude for all of the years and hours of their time, love and sacrifice they gave to Michael's "vision". Regardless of how he felt about them leaving, he owed them the decency to let people know that God was moving them in a different direction.

    Again, that is why I could no longer sit under MP's ministry. His character was in question and he was no longer someone I could respect due to his lack of respect for so many. Christianity aside, he is not a man of good moral character, something we work so hard to teach our children.

    And as a final comment with regard to your comments about the Maus's silence being resposible for allowing the damage to continue - again, so wrong. They had the courage to leave and they had young children and stood so much to lose.

    Let's look at who is allowing the damage to continue - those who hear the truth and refuse to leave out of fear of what others will say about them or because they won't be able to find a church as "great" as CStone. That to me is cowardice.

    To the Maus's and Martinez's, thank you for your faithful years of service out of true Christ-like love for others. Thank you for setting a worthy example that inspired others to follow Christ as you followed Christ in faith, not fear or wavering. These in my estimation are the true men and women of character who reflect the true image of God into the lives of others.

    May God richly bless their lives, for in due time, they shall reap of they good they have sown.

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  16. Here, here Movin On!!! AMEN-AMEN-AMen! Rich and Beth Maus are some of the most compassionate, loving, respectful people I know and they would do anything for anyone. I too respected Pastor Martinez and miss them all! We have all tried to pick up the pieces after they left.
    I do have to disagree on one part - those of us who have stayed - it is not so much out of cowardness, I have stayed for many reasons and one of them is because of the children. They have lost so much in the ministry, men and women they respected, love, and had great relationships. I stay for the calling on my life to minister to God's children and I do keep my priorities straight and minister as God calls me to. So, do we all look past the humanity of MP - no, but I think we all look to the greater good...furthering God's call in the Earth. I wish Rich, Beth, and Pastor Martinez were still here, they are missed - but I too agree the children would suffer with more exodus of some people. I am however listening to the Spirit and when God gives me His permission I will go - wherever He leads me.
    VERY nice comments about Min Maus and Pastor Martinez! I too pray for them and ask God to bless them all!

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  17. To Soilder:
    Thanks for your heart-felt comment friend!

    Just want to clarify in regards to "cowardness" -That was posted by Sam I am -"I find their silence to be an act of cowardness". He was referring to the ministers who have left and did not speak out; not members who stay.

    I appreciate your input and sentiments toward the Maus and Martinez families as well. That is quite a mature attitude given the current situation.

    However, I just would like you to consider something. I realize that you may be "staying" because your heart is in the right place. You probably do have a call to minister to children -absolutely! However, knowing that things are unhealthy within your church leadership --why would you continue to support it? Ultimately, you are making the choice every week with your attendance...to still support something that God has shown you is unhealthy --regardless of your motivation. I understand that it’s a tough place to be in; I was once there. But continuing to support what has become unhealthy, will ultimately work against the children who grow up within that church environment! So, it’s not an issue of “humanity”, for none of us are perfect. However, when a leader refuses to take ownership for his “humanity” and continues to control the church with his Spiritual Abuse..that’s a completely different situation.

    Much like a co-dependant family member who struggles with moving out because the alcoholic has “problems”, and may still need them to contribute to the home in order for it to run properly. Same thing friend. No one stops loving because they leave; they just decided to no longer enable the dysfunction.

    In the meantime, you have to make this choice for yourself. Don’t take my words for it..ask the Holy Spirit to guide you into His truth; which I’m sure you will! God Bless your journey!

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  18. @Speaking the Truth . . . . well said in your last post. Don't know if you have noticed MP's latest post on FB "those who have tasted the GOOD have lost their taste for the mean ugly and self absorbed..its already shifted and its all good" - Its amazing to me that he can make statements like this when there is no one more "mean and ugly" in their behavior than he is . . . . I know, I have been on the other end.

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  19. BeeKeeper...

    Many of the responses on FB are congregants thanking him for his transparency and honest. One stated, "He is so real."

    How is it so many come out against him as being just the opposite? I sometimes wonder if I am blinded to the side I should be following (if that makes sense).

    I know I am to pray to the holy spirit. I have been. I just get angry and frustrated.

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  20. To Anonymous 12:21 am--

    Friend, thank you contributing your respectful comment. I appreciate your honesty. I have to say --you have asked a very powerful question!

    I really sense that you are entering the valley of decision. I hope that what I share doesn't necessarily "sway" one's opinion to the "other side" –for there are no “sides”. (God doesn’t take sides –He takes over.) But, I hope that what I do share…will perhaps confirm or clarify something the Holy Spirit has already been showing you.

    In regards to Michael’s ability to keep it “REAL”:
    In my humble observation, Michael Pitts has a very charismatic personality and was anointed by God to begin a ministry many years ago. Michael’s gift has enabled him to open the Word --to deliver it in a very real and practical way that makes it easy for people to apply it to their day-to-day lives. With that being said, I believe (for that very reason) those members who come from very traditional Protestant Churches or Catholicism –find this as a breathe of fresh air! In my book, he will always be remembered (for his desire to be himself) in his method of sermon delivery. In the past, I admired the fact that he resisted the pressure to validate himself with the likeness of the “religious sect” –he was a known non-conformist to man-made religious pressures. In the past, I applauded his aspirations to resist religious titles and stuffy words as to avoid being “validated” by those things. Yes, being who God has made you to be…is a powerful tool.

    I think the problem for some is that since he has such an ability to vocally deliver his messages in a “real way”….many are confusing THAT with TRANSPARENCY. Meaning, if someone appears “real” in their approach -then surely what they are saying is HONEST and TRUTHFUL right? Not so. Never confuse being “real”, with being TRANSPARENT. Never confuse speaking “real”, with speaking “Truth”. They may SEEM similar, but they are not the SAME.

    Friend, may God help you to separate the voice of Man, the voice of Self, and the voice of the Father. Sometimes through the process of unfolding the truth --the confusion lies between: “What IS real/true” and “What is MY DESIRE for the real/true to BE”.

    May God keep you and establish you in HIS TRUTH…God Bless.

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  21. To Anonymous 12:21 am--

    The reason we can interpret what he is saying is we know him personally. Rest assured he is reading this blog as are a good many in CC. AT first when he was being accused of egotism, he played the victim card by saying "a friend loveth at all times and a brother is born for adversity". Trying to sound humble and garnish sympathy by essentially saying "oh look at all the people jusdging and attacking me". Notice he posted something virtually identical to this by saying "who is man" to judge what God has made. Then he gets on a "righteous" (sarcasm) indignation kick and says things like "I"m going to speak as the Bishop" as if anyone who knows his schenangans believes in his spirituality. Then he goes back to the pious thing with comments like I posted (i.e. we have lost our taste for "mean ugly and self absorbed") when, ironically, SOOOOOOOOOO many people wouldn't be hurting if he had not been so in the first place. All of the people who have expressed hurts on this blog tried with all their heart (IMO) to support him (through many misteps) by offering grace and forgiveness, support his vision (financially and otherwise) and serve the Church in some capacity. All were hurt by him and his "mean ugly and self absorbed" actions and then he throws it as us as if we should have just taken it and kept slavishly following him. In other words shut-up, show-up and pay-up and let me continually do what I want, without criticism or complaint. This IS NOT the attitude of as servant of God, I don't care what he calls himself.

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  22. BeeKeeper,

    Very observant and very well stated about how Michael manipulates the sheeple who are ignorant of his many devices or who refuse to look at that 'pink elephant" in the room.

    Jeremiah the prophet said it this way about pastors who scatter their sheep and do not care for them:

    Jer. 23:1-4
    Woe be unto the pastors that destroy and scatter the sheep of my pasture! saith the Lord.

    Therefore thus saith the Lord God of Israel against the pastors that feed my people; Ye have scattered my flock and DRIVEN them away and have not visited them (or bestowed care upon them):behold, I will visit upon you the evil of your doings, saith the Lord.

    And I will gather the REMNANT of my flock out of all countries whither I have driven them and will bring them again to their folds; and they shall be fruitful and increase.

    And I will set up shepherds over them which SHALL feed them:and they shall fear no more, nor be dismayed, neither shall they be lacking, saith the Lord.

    So, take heart all who have left the Stone and are seeking after the pure and true things of God's Word. He shall set up true shepherds over you who will care for you and feed you right things. Be patient, pray much and God will bring you to the place of finding a true shepherd for your soul.

    We live in a day and time where God is sifting and shaking the apostates and false teachers among us. That is why it is so important to read God's Word for yourself and be ready to defend the truth of His Word, not a man given to much wine and false doctrine who has an entertainment based church where everybody can feel good and get excited even though much sin is in the camp.

    To all who have left, you have done well to discern, so fear not for God is watching and will never leave you nor forsake you. He watches over His Word to perform it in your life, and this season in your life will pass. Withdrawal & detoxing from an abusive system is never easy or pleasant, but in the end, it will yield the peaceable fruit of righteousness in your life. Look to and lean on Jesus like never before and He will never let you down!

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  23. Great insight "speaking the truth" provided in his discernment about keeping it real and transparency.
    I hope this site offers the kind of help I believe their trying too give. This is my second comment on this site, and I have never commented on any other site. That being said, in order to affect positive results, we must all walk in the spirit meekness.
    Everyone has to follow his or her own convictions and establish their own core values.It seems to be the American way to want to know all the dirty little details of a scandal or moral failure. We must learn from the scriptures that people who know to much about a person's sin often judge the matter most harshly.
    In John 8: 1-7 We find the story of the woman caught in the very act of adultery. The Pharisees tried to tempt the Lord in order to accuse Him. They quoted the Law of Moses, Jesus simply ignored them and wrote something in the dirt. (maybe their sins we don't know what) His reply was, He that is without sin let him first cast a stone at her, or at Cornerstone if you will. This statement brought great conviction and from the eldest to the youngest everyone dropped the charges. Because no man in his own righteousness can condemn another, it was left to Jesus too decide. His choice was not to condemn, but rather instruct her to stop sinning.

    I could tell many things about what some are fishing for, but none of these stories would glorify God. To be quite honest people believe what they want to believe.

    Coming out of the same thing many of you are discussing, I can tell you from experience, that healing begins when you can love unconditionally. That means your enemies too, even if that enemy is Michael Pitts. This is how you know if its the love that Paul spoke of in 1 Cor.13 Love does not keep count.

    I'm not a MP fan nor do I have an axe to grind.It's not the responsibility of the people who have left too inform them that stay with maligning stories of the Pitts brothers. Their still remains a God factor. Many of you have stated that in the beginning of Cornerstone Pitts was called of God and on track. If God set him up ,it is up to God to bring him down if he chooses.

    Debating the scriptures is never evil if done in a right spirit. Jesus taught by both asking questions...Who do men say that I am... and allowing others to ask questions...what must I do to receive eternal life..

    We in leadership are called to a higher standard for good reason. Many lives are influenced by our words and our deeds. It is very upsetting and unsettling to see so much compromise in the church. We should all expect more from ourselves. Classifying Christians is not a good practice. There are no first class or second class citizenship. We are all the sheep of the Lord's flock, and must give an account for all our actions.

    MP has consistently practiced situational ethics. He makes the rules that everyone in his world must play by but he himself is exempt.He has befriended men and preached for men
    who left fellowships, even when he knew the men they were leaving. When someone has left him you cannot speak to them without being accused of high treason. He has lost many relationships over the years but never seeks restoration.
    The reason is always the same. These people are evil or crazy, my favorite is RP calling folks Jezebel (Now that's funny I don't care who you are.)

    Last thought; If a first grader tells you your really smart. It doesn't count. When men in compromise morally and ethically validate your Bishop status, you got it, It doesn't count.

    Live Strong
    Love strong
    Be blessed saints

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  24. To Berean:
    Thank you for your comment! You bring a lot of wisdom to the matter and highlight many of our true intentions with the blog.

    #1 -You are absolutely right: People love to hear the juicy details and some probably hope we’ll start allowing the “inside scoops” on all the moral failures in the camp! (That would be another blog in and of itself.) I actually just deleted a message that said: "Just get on with it, when are you going to get down to it and give details on all the sin going on behind the scenes?!" How will that help anything?? If you KNOW it to be true or discern something is not right --how then do the ugly “details” help your decision anymore than the Word of God itself has ALREADY spoken on the matter? Now, this is NOT to say that there may not be truth to the moral failures --however, the SIN issue is not the ROOT issue. The root issue is Spiritual Abuse and how to recover and move forward in a healthy way --and THAT is what we are providing a forum for. Everything else is ALWAYS brought to light –in it’s own time.

    When it comes to LOVE –I’m so glad you brought that up! That is why we are called Speaking Truth in Love. Love is unconditional. We all personally pray for the leadership and continue to love the leadership 110%. I do not think you can have the right motives without LOVE –period. We do realize that getting to that place does not happen over night for most, it does take time to heal and that is absolutely normal. However, showing love is NOT continuing to enable an unhealthy situation. Actually, refusing to contribute to a person’s dysfunction –is in essence, demonstrating true love. This is with the HOPE, that they will be brought into a position to face themselves and ultimately recover. Why would I continue to hand someone the resources to further destroy their life? Ultimately we are accountable to God for our relationships one with another.

    As far as “bringing down Cornerstone” –I’m sure everyone knows by now…NOT on the agenda. (After all, the real "enemy” of us all is Satan.) The future of Michael and Robert Pitts and Cornerstone (as with all of us) lie in the hands of their own choices. Each of us are extended Mercy and Grace in our daily lives…and only the Father knows what day His benevolence in working with our hearts will come to an end. As far as those wanting to know “when”….well I will say: Judgment delayed, is not judgment denied. So it is best to daily walk, ever so humbly before the Lord – “He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created; things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in Him all things HOLD TOGETHER.” (Colossians 1:15-17)

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  25. Part 2:
    As far as sound doctrine and Christ-like leadership, we are instructed to scripturally judge those within the church…so of course there will articles written and comments shared that bring light to the situation in a bold way. This is not meant to sound “self-righteous”..as we all should walk in the Fear of the Lord will all humility and meekness. But this is so that we may properly edify those who are in need of sound doctrine –which all are instructed to teach if you are a follower of Christ. When false teaching is given publically, it should be subject to scrutiny publically.

    For example, in response to the reports of sexual sin within the church of Corinth, Paul responded, ”I have already passed judgment on the one who did this, just as if I were present” (1 Cor. 5:3). Was Paul sinning in his judgment? Was Paul misleading God’s people when he taught, “What business is it of mine to judge those outside the church? Are you not to judge those inside? God will judge those outside” (1 Cor. 5:12, 13).

    If judging one another is wrong, how can we live out what God’s Word teaches?
    • “I urge you brethren to watch out for those who cause divisions and put obstacles in your way” (Romans 16:17).
    • “Dear friends, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world” (I John 4:1).

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  26. "Speaking the truth in Love"
    Thanks for your kind words. I want to make sure I'm not misunderstood. I do not believe this website to be evil intended, with the destruction of Pitts or Cornerstone as its objective. People are hurting and need help.

    I also believe we should always judge what's been taught and confront sin and heresy head on. The problem is and has always been, one man's revelation or interpretation has always been another man's heresy.

    Biblical doctrine is established by many not a few, and it's defense is constant and always challenged. Example would be the "synod of Dort" 1619 5 points made by calvinist's to answer the 5 unscriptural five points submitted by the arminians, to the church of Holland in 1610. Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin were the premier theologians of their day. The views were nearly the opposite of each other. Both views are widely accepted across the globe even today as scriptural correctness. Someone on one side of the fence may call someone on the other side a heretic. Actually that's exactly what happened. However both camps have done incredible things for God and his Kingdom with totally different interpretations of scripture.
    The only fight we are to fight is the one of faith.
    Paul was not in sin to judge the immorality going on in the church he founded. It was the responsibility of the Apostles to lay foundational doctrine in the church, Eph. 2:20.

    John's first epistle dealt with several heretical issues. 1 false teachers said they had a special grace from God that made it impossible to sin, 1John 1:8. Your quote in 1 John 4 is John addressing the hellenistic view that all matter is evil and therefore God could not have come in the flesh, for it would have made Him evil. It's the introduction to John's discourse on the antichrist. anti-the greek preposition which can mean against or in place of. The second greek word was strategos which means commander or hostile commander. Again the Apostle John was doing the work commissioned him by Christ.


    Much of what is taught in certain streams of Christendom I don't believe to be scriptural and that's why I left those streams. God did not call me to correct the body of Christ. That doesn't mean I'm not up for the challenge of debating the issues of false doctrine and abusive structures of leadership.

    John 16:13 The Holy Spirit will guide us into all truth concerning Jesus. Many need to ask for that guidance in this season. I have confronted and debated the scriptures with many men of God. I believe in close handed theology(those things that are absolute and non-debatable) and open handed theology ( Gray areas that are not eternal issues). Things we may not see eye to eye that does not hinder our fellowship.
    So continue to help folks, give them your read on what the scriptures teach from your view point. I've found if I preach the truth I don't always have to point out the lie. Your doing a great job, keep up the good work.

    In His Grip

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  27. Thank you, Speaking the Truth, fo sharing: “When it comes to LOVE –I’m so glad you brought that up! That is why we are called Speaking Truth in Love. Love is unconditional. We all personally pray for the leadership and continue to love the leadership 110%. I do not think you can have the right motives without LOVE –period.”

    Because we are discussing dysfunctional and abusive churches, I think it is essential to share a few Biblical traits of the God kind of love, lest those caught in a truly unloving relationship are deceived into believing that what they are experiencing is, indeed, love. To expose people to God’s idea of love is never a bad thing. It will drive out the darkness contained within a deceptive, abusive relationship.

    Characteristic #1: Love Listens Attentively
    James 1:19-20 “My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.”
    a) Loving relationships listen, that they may be accountable to one another. We all need to walk in the realms of accountability.
    b) We must also listen in order to hear the heartbeat of those that we are in relationship with. They will speak their heart! We must listen to hear it. (Luke 6:45)

    Characteristic #2: Love Speaks Softly
    Ecclesiastes 9:17 ”The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools.”
    Proverbs 15:1 “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”
    It is the soft, or quiet, word that will have the greatest impact. We will affect more people with a whisper than with a shout. This truth is obvious. Who do we respect more; the person continually frothing and foaming like the angry sea, or the person who calmly speaks into our lives?

    Characteristic #3: Love Is Not Combative
    Proverbs 16:32 “He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.”
    It is our relationships of love that are to be places of refuge. I am not saying that there should never be moments of confrontation. But that confrontation should not be full of anger and venom. (Ephesians 4:15)
    There is a style of communication that does not provoke. (I Corinthians 13:5)
    • We must avoid biting sarcasm and taunting.
    • We must avoid public humiliation.

    In conclusion... when we are looking for a Godly, loving style of leadership, it is not difficult to discern when we see the Lord's template.

    Be blessed saints.

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  28. I spent 17 years involved in this ministry and at the moment I needed help, in my personal life, I was alone. Instantly ostracized and abandoned. I can't emphasize enough how important it is for those who still believe that the organization and its leadership are doing right by the people they feign to serve to take a look at the multitude of cases similar to my experience. It's a veneer. I was there for them, but they weren't there for me. That's not the love of God. That's something else entirely.

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  29. I would like to add about knowing all the "intimate details" - I cannot speak so eloquently with scripture. I do have authority in the area of recovery.

    Partners of addicts (as well as addicts) are codependent. That is the (dys)functioning system of existence.

    Rule #1 - YOU DONT NEED ALL OF THE DETAILS.
    With codeps, that is ALL we want. Down to the last nth of a detail. We can ask a question 1000 different ways. Quite honestly, we would make phenomenal detectives.

    The problem with knowing details is this: it is fueling OUR issues. One popular argument is: but if i don't know, how will I know what to do?

    That is an EXCELLENT point! First and foremost I believe that what we need to know will be revealed to us when we are ready for it. Having said that, I do believe we need to know certain things and then take responsibility for the knowledge we have.

    Dirty details just generate hurt and anguish. There is a way to gently and generally let people know that things are amiss. My spouse shares that they are having an affair. Do I really need to know the who's where's what's when's? No. I WANT TO KNOW THEM -- But I don't need to know. I have all the information I need to make a decision about the relationship.

    Details would make my buttons go off the charts. It sets a cycle in motion. That is the point I turn to the support I have come to trust, in a controlled environment for me. Then, with time and great care, I sift through what I want to know and WHY I want to know it. Then the biggest one of all -- what will I do with the information once I have it.

    I could never understand why the Stone never had recovery programs. Silly me.

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  30. To Anonymous 10:28 pm:

    Thank you friend for your powerful and informative comment on Recovery --very good! God Bless you, keep it coming...

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  31. To Anonymous 17 yrs. @ C-stone:

    Friend, thank you for sharing. You just put a thousand words into two sentences.

    I Cor. 13:2
    "If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have LOVE, I am nothing."

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  32. Sonlight29- your post was very good, and this is the type of personal details that I believe are critical, I did not mean salacious details, but details about how peolpe and faith are affected. I also believe that the members of Cornerstone are for the most part good honest God fearing people, but I also believe that they are buying into a cult of personality, and are being misled.I think this blog is wonderful and those leaving cornerstone need as much support as they can get. However if you saw someone thowing children into a river, you are quickly faced with two options, fishing the children out of the river, or stopping the person from throwing the children into the river to begin with, I usually go with lets stop the person doing the harm.

    Movin on- I guess my first question is who told them (Maus and Martinez) to be quiet, and why would they comply. As to what Forum would they come out on, I know lots of current and ex members who want to know the truth regarding Maus and Martinez, and who would love to support them and their vesion, but only know what little is spread around CC, or places like this where few know the whole story, and rumors and guessing run rampet. I actually have a lot of respect for Martinez as a man of God, didn't really know Maus that well, but paople who I do respect say good things about him. However I am disappointed that they chose not to fight the good fight, especially when they gave up so much in leaving. You mentioned that it is the fault of those who hear the truth and stay at CC because of fear that are to blame that the situation continues, and I agree if they have in deed seen the truth, but many cannot see past MP, and is why it is so important that those who are respecsted and leave make a stand. Others have alluded that I still attend CC but that is not correct, I was a member for quite a while but never bought into most of what MP was selling and I eventually left when I saw no way to reconcile what I believed and what MP was teaching. And I speak out about the Pitts every opportunity I can, but I am easy to ignore because I wasn't high up in the church, I wasn't in the inner circle, and most people didn't even notice me at the church.

    November 2, 2010 12:44 PM

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  33. To Sam I Am:
    I agree with you --people should absolutely not fear speaking out the truth! That is exactly what helps people -our testimonies. Especially from those who we KNOW have a good reputation.

    I also understand what you mean by DETAILS –not ugly ones..but REAL ones for sake of understanding! Absolutely!! I think that is perfectly healthy and vital to the process of moving forward. There is no need to STILL “ACT” like you’re apart of the dysfunctional family –when in fact you have left!

    In regards to the above article, this particular writer did not feel comfortable giving away too many details, only because they (personally) did not want their identity revealed. Reason being...most will just brush them off as "so-n-so" disgruntled person and attribute wrong motives for the sake of discrediting their statements.

    However, as we run into people or are contacted --we should boldly speak the truth in love. You are right...and if anyone wants to submit an article with their full name...FEEL FREE!

    In regards to the ministers that have left, they were not given a platform at Cornerstone to even say goodbye. Therefore it was impossible for them to address it there. However, Richard and Beth Maus have stated that they would be happy to sit down with anyone looking for answers as to why they left. They are very free from the situation, but understand that a lot of people have questions.

    If anyone would like to speak to the Maus Family, you can e-mail me your info and I will immediately forward it to them. Pastor Martinez is in California and is doing well. He and his lovely wife just started a new church.

    Again, Sam I Am...you bring up a good point. Thanks, friend!

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  34. Here are some recent thoughts... Since I've been reading this blog, not that I've read everything on here, I find anger and frustration coming up about being in a church or being lead by someone who seemingly didn't care. I obviously can't or shouldn't say the leadership didn't care at all, but it appears at times they didn't. I also get frustrated with comments on other social network sites saying people need to forgive and stop being bitter or accusing those that post on the blog of being slanderous or gossipers.

    Here's the issue, Matt 18:15 Moreover if your brother shall trespass against you, go and tell him his fault between you and him alone: if he shall hear you, you have gained your brother. 16 But if he will not hear you, then take with you one or two more, that in the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. 17 And if he shall neglect to hear them, tell it to the church: but if he neglects to hear the church, let him be to you as a heathen man and a publican.

    Maybe I'm a coward for leaving the church without going to MP and telling him that I don't understand why he was lacking grace and speaking negatively about people that were good/godly people. I know other people that went to him to tell him things they didn't approve of and they were asked to leave. But was that the godly thing for me to do? I may have been asked to leave and not been given an opportunity to bring others in who shared the same opinion.

    I felt I should leave, but never attempted to share my reasons why with MP. I just assumed he wouldn't be open to it. I didn't agree with certain things, am frustrated with some of the attitude I've received from current members of CC, but I'm not unwilling to forgive, love and pray for them. I need forgiveness, love and prayer too...

    The messages following my initial thought that something wasn't right with the leadership were accusatory towards anyone who questioned or spread half truths, so that was another reason I didn't see any resolve in sight. I didn't want to be made to feel bad about questioning the actions of someone that wasn't following the word of God. So I left. I talked to a pastor, prayed for a month and the messages were still negative and that was that.

    Just sorting through my thoughts...

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  35. **Just want to CLARIFY my above comment about contacting Rich and Beth Maus.

    I want to make sure NO ONE takes it out of context. They are NOT seeking out people to meet with or seeking to "trash Cornerstone" to anyone who will listen. Rather, that they would never turn away honest, sincere inquiries. Basically, there is nothing to “hide” --Scripture clearly gives us guidelines for proper church structure. However, as our friend wrote in the comment above…people have real questions and need real answers.

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  36. To Sam I Am,

    Part 1
    Some of your thoughts are confusing. How can you say that the Maus's & Martinez's didn't fight the good fight of faith in leaving? If you do not have all of the details, you have no idea how much faith it took to walk away from a ministry you served fatihfully in for 10 years or more.

    Their leaving took tremendous faith & courage. Also, we were told about the Martinez's leaving, but were not given the accurate facts by MP. In addition, MP had stated that they might let Martinez preach one last time, but he wasn't sure & he looked back at RP when he said that. Shortly after that, RP walked off the platform as he did not want MP to say that nor did he want Martinez to preach one last time. RP was done w/ Martinez & wanted him gone as quickly as possible. I don't know that Martinez was told to be quiet. However, on his last Sunday there, I was in the service & neither MP nor RP were there & nothing was mentioned from the platform about it being his last Sunday there. It was only after 1st service that several ministries gave him a send off in the hallway, & people were asking questions. So, during 2nd service, David Banks finally said something if awkwardly so, because if he would have had it MP & RP's way, nothing would have been said. Then, those who sent the Martinez's a fond farewell in the hallway, were hauled into the office upon RP's return & were told to leave because they had asked questions about his departure & because they had a send off in the hallway without permission.

    Those are the facts on Martinez. As for Rich Maus, he personally helped me out after I left & he shared with me the facts of his departure. He WAS TOLD NOT TO TALK TO ANYONE. I contacted him, he did not contact me. So, he out of respect & with much sadness, & shock at how they were treated, left quietly to sort through his own pain & heartache & that of his family. As others have said, they were acting in love by not seeking out other former members & speaking of everything they knew having been in the inner circle. What more do you want from them??

    Your comments are unfair as you have not personally known them. I think several commenters here have made it clear ex-members should not be gossipers or bitter. The Maus's were not, & yet you continue to harp on their "cowardice" & not "fighitng the good fight" of faith, when you have no idea of the sacrifices they have made in following the voice of the Holy Spirit in their lives & risking financial loss as well as being shunned by MP & RP.

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  37. To Sam I Am,

    Part 2
    As for people talking & all sorts of rumors flying around CStone - let's look at Rich Maus's character & all of the faithful years he served that ministry in helping to establish MP's vision. Rich Maus did not leave anything open to question about his character when he served those children. If people are going to continue to serve MP & RP who have proven to be men of questionable character, & they continue to believe their words & doctrine as their headship, then what makes you think they would believe the truth of what Rich Maus would tell those who remain? They are in defense mode.

    In my opinion, it is the fault of MP & RP for not having said one word to the congregation about Rich Maus's leaving just as they did w/ Coach Cook. People had no idea what happened to them, so as human nature goes, people will talk & speculate.

    Racing out after they left to tell every gory detail of what they knew would only make them look like people of little character & "lacking in love" & disgruntled.

    So please Sam I Am, give it a rest already about why the Maus's didn't say anything. They had better things to do than to seek out everyone who left and bad mouth MP & RP and tell ex-members of all of MP & RP's sinful ways. Or better yet, they had better things to do than to call everyone who chose to remain and "warn" them of impending danger or wrong doctrine.

    Anyone who has served there for a long period of time should have enough discernment to see things that are glaringly wrong and make a decision about whether or not to leave. They are the ones who lack the faith and courage, not the good men of character who left for conscienable reasons.

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  38. To Anonymous 12:36,

    Thank you for your heartfelt comments and honesty.

    First of all, you are not a coward for not having shared your reasons for leaving with MP. Truth be known, you would probably not have gotten to talk w/MP anyway, you would have probably been sent to RP & he had little tolerance for anyone who wanted to leave or had differing viewpoints than they did. And most likely, you would have been shown the door.

    I also did not have an exit conversation with anyone and I was a member for nearly 20 years. I, as you, felt it wouldn't do any good or have any resolve, having seen how others who previuosly left were treated. There was no room for discussion.

    So, in light of that, don't question yourself or ask if you did the godly thing. I believe you did. You listened to God's leading in your life, prayed and obeyed. You did not need man's approval to leave. The guilt and questioning comes from the abusive system. A healthy system would welcome discussion and send you off with their blessing if you felt you were leaving as God led you to do.

    Only unhealthy systems cannot let go with open arms and must make you feel like the "off" or disgruntled one. Your quote of Matt. 18:15 is right on point. There is a reason that verse is in the Bible. I think God knew a thing or 2 about human nature and gave us a blueprint for how to deal with sin and offense.

    MP knew of the error of his ways, but pride got in his way. Not only that, but the same spirit that is on the leaders he associates with, meaning the ICCC and the questionable bishops ordained under that organization, influence his life. As the head, whatever deceptive, perverse spirit that is on him flows down and blinds the spiritual eyes of those who follow him.

    If you want to see the type of men that David Huskins has ordained under the ICCC, look no further than Eddie Long and google Jim Swilley, then click on the GCMW website and watch the video on Pastor Jim Swilley. You can also read the comments posted on the GCMW website under the Jim Swilley video and article. GCMW is an excellent website.

    In closing Anonymous 12:36, you have done nothing wrong and there is nothing wrong with you. You are as the rest of us are, sorting through your thoughts, questions and confusion at times. That is normal and OK. In fact, it is mentally healthy.

    So, keep reading, writing & asking questions. You will be ok. It takes time to detox and withdraw from years of toxic preaching and a toxic spiritual environment.

    May God grant you peace, wisdom and comfort as you journey forward in Jesus.

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  39. Movin on- I guess not fighting the Good fight really comes down to what all they actually know. If they were as blinded by MP as everyone else, and thier leaving was because for them God called them to be else where (and MP took offense) then there was no fighting to be done, and MP just acted like a jerk (especially towards Maus). However if they know of other problems in the church, be it adultry that was covered up, false teachings, financial issues, whatever then as leaders of the church and men of God whom the congregation respected, the fight that they left was to help bring the truth out, and to bring the members back into the light and into grace, and to be the shepards of men that they sought to be.
    I don't understand the whole "they were told not to talk to anyone", or what they would lose their jobs, oh wait they already lost their jobs, they might be taken to court , I suppose that s a risk if they libel someone, but just for talking. I mean the first thing I'm going to do if someone tells me I can't talk to anyone, is I'm going to go talk to people.
    You mentioned the faith and courage it took to walk away from CC, and many here have done that and we know it is difficult. However faith and courage is doing the right thing even when faced with aversity, speaking the truth, when others would silence you, helping those to find the path you are walking when others would seek to hide it.
    Now I am greatly pleased that Speaking the Truth in Love has offered to connect people to Maus that would like to, and I am glad that Maus and his wife are receptive to people reaching out to them.
    In your part 2 you question why those following MP and RP would believe what Maus or Martinez says is true. Well first I don't think they would reach everyone, but truth is like water, it seeps in to the smallest cracks and wears down mountains, truth is an amazing thing. There are some who already have doubts that will see what Martinez and Maus say as the final piece they need, others who see but don't want to understand may shrugg it off but it will nag them like some of the other stuff they let pass until eventually they can't deny anymore. And then there will be those who will never be swayed, even as MP and RP lose control as they try to hold onto what they have. Like water truth will slip through MP fingers as he squeezes it to hide it.
    You said in your opinion it is MP and RP fault for not letting Maus say anything, or coach. And I agree, however its a strategy that has worked for them.
    Lastly although I fault them for "not fighting the good fight", I do understand the difficulties that they went through and understand that what they have been through is hard, and that they have choosen the path that they have because they believe that it was the right thing to do for them and their families, and I do not fault them for that. I sincerely hope that both the Maus family and the Martinez family find peace and happiness, and success where ever they may end up. And it is my hope that one day I will again see Martinez preach again, because I truely liked it when he preached.

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  40. Movein on you wrote-
    "Anyone who has served there for a long period of time should have enough discernment to see things that are glaringly wrong and make a decision about whether or not to leave. They are the ones who lack the faith and courage, not the good men of character who left for conscienable reasons."
    There was a time I would have agreed with this, I am all for personal responsibility, but its not really that simple, and I think the articles on abusive churches found here show that. People are misled about what is biblical or real, and told that they are wrong to challenge any teachings other than what is spoon fed them, they are told not to think, that the truth is beyond reason. You have people who believe that God is only present in the house when the service is on fire and people are worked up to a frenzy, so that even when they try to go somewhere else they feel that God is absent, because the atmosphere is different. They fail to see that God is everywhere you choose to have a relationship with him.But places like CC enforce the beief that they are the key to your relationship with God, and people who buy that will overlook many things in order to maintain what they see as their means of having a relationship with God. It is up to men of faith and courage, and places like this blog, to help show people that God existis outside of anyone church, or any one pastor, but that we as individuals are responsible for our own relationship with God.

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  41. To Movin' On,

    I would like to thank you for your thoughts and encouragement.

    ~Anon 12:36

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  42. Although I've left C-Stone, what baffles me are all of the gifts that flow in that place. I know we aren't to look at the gifts but at the fruit. However, I think it's very confusing for people when there appears to be such an anointing. Not to confuse gifts with an anointing, of course (but we do). Talk of last night's service and so many being drunk in the spirit, even for the first time. Claims that supernatural oil was coming from Huskin's hands. Idk, perhaps he dipped it in olive oil behind the pulpit when no one was looking. But if not, why does God move at this level when there is so much that is wrong there? I realize some of it is emotion but some of it isn't. I have to check myself because I start to miss that aspect of God...it's kind of like a drug.

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  43. To Anon 6:02 pm:
    PART I
    Thank you for your comment friend! You ask a great question that I’m sure will grant a lot of attention and much need scriptural dialogue. However, let me preface my response by saying that this is not something “new”…many have come and GONE claiming similar “miracles”…same game/different generation.

    First of all..we will probably have to do an extended article to fully cover your question. This is what I will say for now:

    •We know that all glory, majesty, power, and authority belongs to the Lord. So it’s either 1 of 3 sources: Holy, Demonic -“lying signs and wonders”, or Human (con/trickster).

    Quoting David Huskins last night, “I don’t know WHERE it’s coming from..but as long as it brings Peace –I don’t care.” Hmm…really?

    This is problem #1. When you do not have Scriptural Reference for your basis of theology and instead are teaching from EXPERIENCES…you open the door for false teaching and can EASILY introduce good, God-loving saints to lying signs and wonders and/or common trickery.

    HERE’S SOME QUESTIONS TO CONSIDER:
    1. What doctrine comes with it?
    2. What is the FRUIT of the sign in the LIFE of the people involved? (is Huskin’s doctrine even fully known by the members of Cornerstone?)
    3. Do heads and hands that exude rose oil confirm a CLOSER FAITH to Jesus Christ God-Incarnate, risen from the dead? Or DO THEY CAUSE PEOPLE TO BE DRAWN CLOSER TO THE MAN and HIS Movement instead?
    4. Do they result in greater striving for holiness and prayer?
    5. OR -- Do they encourage people to seek after more signs??

    When God permits it, Satan can and does counterfeit the miraculous to purposely deceive unbelieving sign seekers. The wise men, sorcerers and magicians of Egypt were able to produce some of the same signs that God enabled Moses to do. Exodus 7:10-15, 8:1-7. (The lying sign serves to give credence to that which is false.)

    Lying signs and wonders are never what men really think they are. To those who are deceived by them, they are “true signs” or evidences that portend certain -CONCLUSIONS! A lying sign or wonder could be a cleverly conceived SUBSTITUE for a true sign or wonder. The lying sign not only LEADS ASTRAY --but it serves to confirm man in error and thus keeps him AND others from truth that WOULD set them free.

    When people claim to have “oil” running from their head and their hands along with the smell of the “supernatural fragrances”…it would seem like THAT would be the final indicator of “God’s STAMP” of approval right?! WRONG –read your Word.

    “For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect." Matt. 24:24.

    "Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders." II Thess. 2:9

    The word SIGN (as used in the scriptures) does often have reference to the miraculous. The Greek word semeion means a sign, token, miracle or something that indicates. However, it is obvious from the way it is used --that the sign could be many things. In fact, it could be anything that becomes the criterion that STRONGLY EXCITES OR INFLUENCES men.
    (cont. below)

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  44. PART 2--

    For the love of common sense --I personally do not understand what purpose these "oil manifestations" would serve? God can do awesome things through prayer so why would he need to put oil on your hands/heads? Why would he want to do something that would DRAW THE SAINTS CLOSER TO A PARTICULAR MINISTER?? I have never even heard of ANY of our historical, powerful tent revivalists or those who currently are raising the dead in their meetings --claim to ever have “oil” coming from their heads/hands. And IF they did…they certainly wouldn't use it to bring attention to themselves to draw a following.

    It appears that Huckster (I mean Huskins) is trying to create a platform for his agenda (I mean ministry); leading people to believe that God is using him to start a “World-Wide” healing revival –thru Him. And THIS is the problem…(As I explained in my Article Jesus –the True Cornerstone) -Most narcissistic, insecure “men of God” who ascribe to “the covering doctrine” usually end up declaring that they are the catalyst for the NEXT “Big Move of God”. Then the Saints get to flip the bill. However, God has equipped THE SAINTS for the working of the ministry. I say…Getting back to the TRUE Word of God needs to be the next “move” in the Body of Christ; with Ministry Gifts equipping us to do so.

    With all that being said:
    Often these hucksters preach a nugget of truth in their 2 hr. meetings..Such as: “Believe what God has already said is TRUE about you.” Yes, Jesus did pay the price and you should use your faith to believe your healing has been paid for and WILL manifest according to His will!

    HOWEVER, this is EXACTLY the method that is used to introduce FALSE TEACHING to the Body! They wrap the outside of the package in beautiful paper indicating that it is a TRUE package…but inside –“You are like whitewashed tombs, which look beautiful on the outside but on the inside are full of dead men's bones and everything unclean –Jesus.”

    Friends, we can simply avoid this by the example of the Bereans –Acts 17:11 “Now the Bereans were of more noble character than the Thessalonians, for they received the message with great eagerness and examined the Scriptures EVERY DAY to see if what Paul said was true.”

    In my opinion: If it brings confusion, leaves you wondering if it's really God, and it doesn't point to Christ; it's a set up. No where in the Bible does it hint of any such activity as this. So let God be true and everything else a liar. Speaking of liars --Satan is an exhibitionist. He likes to be seen and worshiped. He would give the whole world to be worshiped. You could follow his plan and have what ever you wanted for a while. He doesn't have a retirement plan though. So, if it takes gold dust, oil on your hands, or mint-green angel feathers to get you off the correct path of God then-- you shall have that.
    ------
    TRUE Signs of those who Believe:
    Mark 16--
    15 And he said to them, “Go into all the world and proclaim the gospel to the whole creation. 16 Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. 17 And these signs will accompany those who believe: in my name they will CAST OUT DEMONS; they will SPEAK IN NEW TONGUES; 18 they will pick up SERPENTS with their hands; and if they DRINK ANY DEADLY POISON, it will not hurt them; they WILL LAY THEIR HANDS ON THE SICK, and they will recover.”

    My question is this:
    “Why doesn’t Huskins take his “wonder working oil power” to the streets of Toledo and see if our local thug gangsters will fall for it?" Let’s see if the “smell of roses” will bring these men to their knees and raise their friends back from the dead? At the end of the day…if it’s NOT bringing people to the TRUE MESSAGE of the CROSS of Jesus Christ –then it’s dead religious works, pathetic demonic wonders, or pitiful efforts of a desperate con-man. End of story.

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  45. to Anonymous 6:02pm- PART 1

    You bring up an extremely valid and very important point here. The "gifts" in operation - albeit through men with well-known, perverted, UN-godly LIFESTYLES. Here's a few thoughts we would all do well to ponder prayerfully:

    1) Jesus stated that MANY "false christs and false prophets will rise and show great signs and wonders to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (copy/paste this web link searching "deceive" from New Testament: http://www.studylight.org/desk/?l=en&query=deceive&section=2&translation=nkj&oq=deceive%2520you&new=1

    2) Even in OT times, when Moses was sent to Pharaoh's court, the false magicians of a pagan king's cult religion were EASILY ABLE TO DUPLICATE the same "manifestations" - If this was done before New Testament times even, rest assured IT CAN STILL BE DONE TODAY by spiritists and sorcerers who "conjure" up "anointings"

    3) In Matthew 12:39, JESUS REBUKED his very own religiously "churchgoing" generation: But He answered and said to them, "An evil and adulterous generation craves for a sign; and yet no sign will be given to it but the sign of Jonah the prophet; -- and from The Message: --Jesus said, "You're looking for proof, but you're looking for the wrong kind. All you want is something to titillate your curiosity, satisfy your lust for miracles. The only proof you're going to get is what looks like the absence of proof: Jonah-evidence. -- And later Paul wrote in I Cornithins 1:22 For the Jews require a sign, and the Greeks seek after wisdom: 23 But we preach Christ crucified, unto the Jews a stumblingblock, and unto the Greeks foolishness; 24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God. --- So.... A sign-seeking, "season of miracle" proclaiming, "presence" lusting crowd have LOST TOUCH with "WE PREACH CHRIST CRUCIFIED... the REAL "POWER OF GOD, and THE Wisdom of God!"

    4) Skip to the END of TIME, and the Beast himself (the physical "man"ifestation of Evil, inc.) is a "miracle-worker" -- Adding 2 Thessalonians 2 in detail here: LET NO MAN DECEIVE YOU BY ANY MEANS: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that MAN OF SIN BE REVEALED, the son of perdition; 4 Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5 Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6 And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7 For the MYSTERY OF INIQUITY doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9 Even HIM, whose coming is after the working of Satan WITH ALL POWER, AND SIGNS, AND LYING WONDERS, 10 And with ALL DECEIVABLENESS OF UNRIGHTEOUSNESS in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved. 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

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  46. PART 2 (continued from above reply to Anon 6:02 pm)

    BOTTOM LINE: the true Saints of the Most High God, THE ELECT, cannot be deceived, swayed, bamboozled, or "shifted" away from their True Shepherd and King (come on! even King Saul WOULD PROPHESY- and the Word states clearly that he also had "an evil spirit" on him!)-- These goofy, "Roman Catholic-styled" manifestations (a la, Mary appearing on a wall somewhere, a picture of Jesus hands bleeding, etc, etc) are NOTHING NEW. Again, your best defense against "lying signs and wonders" is to CLOSELY EXAMINE the HEART, CHARACTER, LIFESTYLE, and FRUIT (seasonal, cyclical patterns produced by and) of these MEN who I fear belong only to the "Sham-Wow School of Bishopry" (their personal lives v. their "stage show" life is a SHAM, and they "WOW" the unsuspecting, easily-deceived masses).

    Closing with I John 4:1 (NLT):
    "Dear friends, do not believe everyone who claims to speak by the Spirit. You must test them to see if the spirit they have comes from God. For there are many false prophets in the world."

    --For more details, please check out my last Podcast titled, "IF YOU KNEW THE GIFT OF GOD" where I briefly detail WHO is THE Gift of God v. a "GIFTED" one that is NOT of God.

    Here's the link to it: http://www.624creations.com/Podcast/Entries/2010/10/24_The_New_Journey__If_You_Knew_the_Gift_of_God.html

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  47. To Speaking Truth and dmac624, from Anon 6:02 pm - Just getting a chance to get back on here for a minute...this is REALLY GREAT scripturally based information! Wow! I so appreciate your time and thorough responses! I'm going to need to read through this a few times and take notes! =) Just wanted to say thanks!

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  48. In response to "Anonymous" on Nov. 5th: "what baffles me are all of the gifts that flow in that place"...

    People think that because God spoke to their heart through a man that the man MUST have the anointing be righteous in his lifestyle. Not true. God in His love for you and the numerous people listening will always use whatever avenue He has available to minister to people despite the wretchedness of the messenger. God spoke through a donkey for gosh sakes (Num. 22:28) so why is it so hard to believe that He can and will speak through a false prophet or even someone who is not a Christian at all?

    Romans 11:29 says "For the gifts and the calling of God are without repentance" which means that God will never revoke a person's gifts. Should the person chooses to live a lifestyle of sin, use their gifts for their own gain or for evil, God will not take them away. God is not an Indian giver. A gift is a gift.

    Therefore, a man can live a sinful lifestyle and still operate in his gift. A good example of this is A.A. Allen. He was an alcholic, but operated in a healing ministry where people continued to receive healing. It was out of God's love for the people and their faith that healed them, not the man. God is faithful and if you have FAITH He will not withhold your healing (or personal Word) just to spite the sinful preacher. That would make Him a catty and spiteful God, which is not in His nature.

    I hope and pray that this explanation will cause chaos and confusion to go in everyone's mind who struggles with this issue. God, bring clarity and understanding to all who seek the truth. Amen.

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  49. To Lover of Truth,

    You make some excellent points. Yes, God uses imperfect men/women to accomplish His will in the earth. He does this of course through the gifts He has given them. I don't think anyone can find fault with that.

    I think the problem comes when certain gifts such as preaching or teaching become twisted with enticing words of man's wisdom and then doctrinal error gets sown.

    Also, when unrepentant sin gets in the way and pride takes over, that spirit gets over on the people under the "gift". Sin opens the door to wrong spirits and ultimately wrong motives which grieves God. He is a patient and loving God and gives room for correction, but when correction is refused, God will allow the course of sin and consequences to take hold.

    I don't have a problem with imperfect men. I do have a problem with prideful men who knowingly lie and manipulate, and control others for their ungodly gain. And in the process, they lose their love for people and treat them as mere servants for the good of their vision disguised as God's vision.

    And yes, may God bring clarity and understanding to all who seek His truth.

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  50. u have GOT to be kiddingNovember 10, 2010 at 11:09 PM

    Let me get this straight: David Huskins has oil scented as roses manifest from his head and hands???

    ...

    BAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHA!
    Yes, because a man dying and raising from the dead just isn't enough for the Saints of God.

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  51. Michael Pitts -every GOOD move has its ANTI voices..thank GOD I am not anti love grace or redemption..If around you there is ANTI love ANTI grace ANTI church ANTI authority ANTI christ..letem go they are anti because they aint done nothin been nothin and have forgotten their own sins..imjustsayin

    Who's he talking about??? I copied this from Michael Pitts fb page and find it ridiculous! How about loving your enemies, if that what you think people that question your ministry are? And what's with the comments that praise this statement that say that people who are hurt and offended by your leadership "aint done nothing been nothing and have forgotten their own sins"? Come on! He started the statement saying he wasn't anti love, grace, etc. What happened by the end of the statement? It's controlling and mean spirited. It's again, ridiculous and one of the reasons I left! just saying...

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  52. I shared most of this before, but with the recent developments, I felt it essential to share again. There is a decidedly dysfunctional concept of love at C-stone. Hence, it is essential to share a few Biblical traits of the God kind of love, lest those caught in a truly unloving relationship, like Cornerstone, are deceived into believing that what they are experiencing is, indeed, love. To expose people to God’s idea of love is never a bad thing. It will drive out the darkness contained within a deceptive, abusive relationship.

    Characteristic #1: Love Listens Attentively
    James 1:19-20 “My dear brothers and sisters, take note of this: Everyone should be quick to listen, slow to speak and slow to become angry, because human anger does not produce the righteousness that God desires.”
    a) Loving relationships listen, that they may be accountable to one another. We all need to walk in the realms of accountability.
    b) We must also listen in order to hear the heartbeat of those that we are in relationship with. They will speak their heart! We must listen to hear it. (Luke 6:45) We NEVER say to those that we love, whether they are an enemy or a friend, "ain't done nothing, been nothing." Every person on earth is so precious to God that He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, to die on the cross for their benefit. Regardless of your stance on C-stone... you are loved by God. You are the "apple of His eye." He desires to have a wonderfully loving relationship with you. He is saying "Come unto me ALL you who labor and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest."

    Characteristic #2: Love Speaks Softly
    Ecclesiastes 9:17 ”The quiet words of the wise are more to be heeded than the shouts of a ruler of fools.”
    Proverbs 15:1 “A gentle answer turns away wrath, but a harsh word stirs up anger.”
    It is the soft, or quiet, word that will have the greatest impact. We will affect more people with a whisper than with a shout. This truth is obvious. Who do we respect more; the person continually frothing and foaming like the angry sea, or the person who calmly speaks into our lives? True love never goes on a public rant concerning those who offer a dissenting, Biblical, opinion.

    Characteristic #3: Love Is Not Combative
    Proverbs 16:32 “He who is slow to anger is better than the mighty, And he who rules his spirit, than he who captures a city.”
    It is our relationships of love that are to be places of refuge. I am not saying that there should never be moments of confrontation. But that confrontation should not be full of anger and venom. (Ephesians 4:15)
    There is a style of communication that does not provoke. (I Corinthians 13:5)
    • We must avoid biting sarcasm and taunting.
    • We must avoid public humiliation.
    * A clenched fist, clenched jaw style of leadership is unbecoming our to our Savior.

    In conclusion... if we use God's Word as a template, it is not difficult to distinguish between a truly loving style of leadership and its counterfeit.

    Be blessed saints.

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  53. Decisions, Decisions...November 12, 2010 at 1:40 PM

    To Sam I am:
    Your judgement of Minister Rich and Beth Maus and Pastor Martinez is ill-guided and wrong. Minister Maus is one of the kindest, loving, most God fearing man I know and his heart is sincere~ he is not one to gossip or make decisions for anyone. What is done in the dark WILL be revealed in the light by GOD and by God alone...it is NOT their responsibility to persuade YOU to leave or to stay at Cornerstone...that is YOUR deicsion as you seek God's guidance. I think you should stop blaming others for not speaking...would you listen? would you believe? Like a parent who counsels their teenager...sometimes you have to allow them to find out some things on their own. I completely respect Min Maus for his silence, and yes if you sincerely seek him out, I'm sure he will talk - but are you ready to listen? I think being mad at Min Maus or Pastor Martinez is WRONG! I pray daily for all those that have left, especially the excellent leadership of Min Maus, Coach Cook, Pastor Martinez, Brother Ray Helminiak Jr., ect. they were good peoples! Don't blame them, PRAY FOR THEM and thank God for them!
    Peace and Blessings to you all! May God's grace surround you alwasy!

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  54. decisions, decisions- I never once said I was mad at either minister Maus or Martinez, I did indicate that I thought their silence was due to cowardace, but cowardace that I believe they are entitled to, I was disagreeing with someone who thought their silence was due to courage. I do think they bear some responsibility to come forward, (unless they left of their own accord and in persuit of their own calling and not in response to problems or issues that they see with CC or the Pitts), after all they stood up on the Diaz as leaders in the church, supporting CC mission, and the Pitts brothers. I think they owe it to people to now correct that support and say that CC mission or teaching or leadership was wrong or misguided or whatever, and that they as men of God can no longer support CC or the Pitts brothers. I do find it bothersome that they could vocally support CC at one time, and then just silently walk away without saying anything (which gives the illusion that they continue to support CC, especially Martinez because his leaving was not as sudden). But as far as being mad at them I'm not, I'm not even mad at Michael or Robert Pitts, I feell sorry for them because I think that at one time Michael truely had an annointing and a vision, and had he chosen another path he could have been a truely positive force instead of the Joke he has become. Lastly I pray for all involved here, Maus, Martinez, the Pitts brothers, those who have left, those who have stayed, those who created this blog, and those who hate this blog.

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  55. AWARE said: "There is a decidedly dysfunctional concept of love at C-stone."
    Yes, it's called CO-DEPENDENCY. If you have ever studied or read anything at all about the Co-Dependent, you would look at what you view as that dysfunctional love and say, it's co-dependent. Interestingly, co-dependency finds itself most often in addictive and abusive relationships. YEP.
    SELAH......

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  56. decisions, decisions: Wanted to break up my thoughts. First you seem to be another person who is under the impression that I still go to CC, I no longer go and haven't for some time, but I also never bought into much of Michael's brand of religion. I went because I liked the floor show, and the praise and worship service. Michael is fun to watch even when you don't agree with him (actually in some ways listening to hm forced me to better understand the truth by forcing me to solidify arguments against his teachings in my mind). I found his attitude towards gays as offensive (I'm not gay BTW) his attitude towards other churches as appalling, and some of his teachings as just wrong, but he was fun to watch. I didn't need anyone to coach me to leave, I left prior to the Bishop Title being bestowed, because by that time the CC experience went from amusing to sad. I also wanted to see what else was around Toledo and have seen many really wonderful services none as entertaining as Michael, although most more spiritually uplifting than Michael's, and if not enbeded in the truth, the pastors had at least shaken hands with the truth.
    Now you also asked would I have listened if Martinez and Maus had spoken out, sure I would have, would everyone else, probably not, but what if there was one person out there who's eyes would have been opened to the truth had Maus or Martinez spoken up, but remain at CC following darkness instead of light because they never heard what they needed. Many people go to church because they need leadership to guide them in their spiritual journey, which can get totally messed up when the church leadership is spiritually flawed, and is why it is important that when other church leaders realize that there are problems they need to do what they have been called upon to do, lead.
    You know maybe its just me, I know if I had been a leader at CC and thrown my support and hardwork and good faith into its mission and the vision of the Pitts brothers, and suddenly realized that things were not as they seemed, I could not leave with out bringing my revelation to light. I was a nobody at CC and I tell as many people as I can about my experience there, and point them to places like this web site, ot Toledo Talks postings or some of the other sites that are out there. I have told quite a few people who still attend CC why I left. But I guess I'm the only one who thinks that if you have thrown your support behind something and you realize that it is not what you believed it to be you need to not only drop your support, but in cases like this warn those who have not seen the problem yet. But I guess thats just me, again I would rather stop the person pushing children into the river, than continually fish children out of the river.

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  57. decisions...decisionsNovember 12, 2010 at 4:00 PM

    Sam:

    I still (currently, but for how long, ???) go to CC...I'm praying and asking God for guidance as there is so much more to consider for me and my family than just MP & RP...there are other relationships I am MUCH closer to and ministry I am involved in...I was merely sticking up for some really GREAT folks who I miss dearly! This has not been easy hearing/reading all this and trying to sort the truth from opinion from rumors. My prayer is God show Himself strong and reveal what is hidden, my prayer is God show me where He is leading me and my family, my prayers is to seek the truth no matter how hard it is to hear/read, and my prayer is that all the folks who have left or are still there that God heals their hearts ...for I know my heart and why I'm serving God, I can't answer for others. So...I said all that to say...whether you were still there or not, I just was sticking up for Min Maus and others as they are REALLY Good people. I am sorry for your experience...I truly am. I believe in the love that is shared/preached in this blog. I think we are all ultimately serving God for all the right reasons ~ and are trying to make sense out of all this ~ I have a mind of my own, I am leaning on God now more than ever and praying He leads me in the right direction! Until we speak again ~ Peace!

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  58. decisions- No harm no foul. I understand that even thinking about leaving CC is difficult, and is not one that I suggest people take lightly. After all if you can switch too easily how rooted were you really. There are lots of reasons people stay, just as there are many reasons that people leave, who is to say what is best for any one individual. Although I never bought into most of what MP was selling, there were times when I would tell people that in watching and listening to him, I more strongly believed that God's message can even come from a flawed messenger. But I also have a very strong knowlegdge base and understanding so that I felt free to take the parts of MP messages that I liked and agreed with, and knew to leave the rest alone.
    My main thing is that too many people at CC are in the dark, either by ignorance or apathy, many I have talked to don't want to know that there are problems, because it requires them to think and possibly to act, many would rather just go to church do their time in the pews, here an emotional energetic if flawed message, give their tithe and feel that they should be blessed regardless of what else they do, so they don't expect much more from the church leadership than they do of themselves. (Granted this isn't everyone, and even many who are ignorant and apathatic, are still great people). And I also know from experience that most people who go to church are fairly uninformed about the bible and or God, except for what they are told, so I don't think many are even aware that MP might not be teaching the complete truth. My only concern is that those who choose to stay, make an informed choice and that means that they have to be enlightened to issues wiith the teachings at CC, and flaws with the leadership, if they can hear the truth and say it doesn't matter to them, that they believe MP version of christianity is the correct one, and everyone else is wrong, so be it. If they can have full disclosure on the moral failings of the leadership and choose to forgive them and still follow them, again so be it. I just want people to be aware so that they can make the right choices for themselves. If that means staying at CC then God be with them I wish them well, if it means leaving CC then may God be with them as well, and hopefully they will find this site and realize that they are not alone.
    On a personal note remember that anyone who would abandon you because you choose to follow what you believe is God's plan for you in leaving CC, never walked with you to begin with. Peope should be happy that you have a relationship with God, regardless of where it occurs. Also remember there are plenty of great churches out there many of which would love to have you, and have you serve in their ministry, in all the churches I have been to I never saw one that said "you know we just don't need any volunters around here".
    Lastly I hope pastor smith sees the light.

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  59. @ Sam I Am:

    Thank you for showing compassion and grace toward decisions...decisions...

    @ decisions....Following the Voice of God and not the Voice of Man -is always the key that unlocks every door. God Bless you friend!

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  60. Speaking truth in love- I will be the first to admit that in my effort to get people to process the full issues at CC, I may at times push fairly hard, and push buttons that are sensitive, - but I really have no desire to to be malicious, or to be needlessly cruel. I am far from perfect and fully understand that not only do I not know all the answers I don't even know all the questions.
    As for decisions, decisions it appears that their eyes have been opened and now it is up to God to show them where they need to be, and if that is away from CC then hopefully they have found resources and supports here to make that transition less painful, if it is to stay at CC then hopefully God has them there for a purpose, and if ever they change their mind hopefully they will remember that the people here did not abandon them just because they choose to stay at a church we disagree with.

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  61. Co Dependence - Love and Dysfunction...

    Everything stated here is on point about the above topics. One of the tell-tale signs is the US/THEM mentality.

    I have an article buried somewhere about the "Kingdom of the Perpetrator." I will see if I can find it.

    I am appalled that Michael could even fathom stating "they are anti because they aint done nothin been nothin and have forgotten their own sins..imjustsayin"

    As if this man knows the heart of another? Really, Michael? Really? Again, in recovery, we are taught to stay out of other people's heads. We know not motives or feelings. We only know actions. And who is Michael to judge the value of anyone "being nothin" or "doing nothin."

    Is this the voice of someone looking in a mirror? Is this projection? Buck up, Michael - we are ALL priests and kings. Even you.

    He's just saying.

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  62. To Sam I Am,

    You confuse and amaze me all at the same time as you often speak in circles regarding the Maus's and David Martinez. And yet even in that, you do make some good points about the workings of MP & CStone.

    Again, I will continue to say that leaving that dysfunctional & deceptive atmosphere is a difficlut thing, so why do you fault the Maus's as cowardly for leaving in the manner they did? Rich went to MP with his reasons for leaving & he became angry along with RP & the Maus's were sent on their way. They did offer to stay around and help through the Heaven on Earth conference the year they left. They were basically told thanks, but no thanks by MP & RP & showed the door.

    Again no platform to "warn" others of the danger. This is the forum for that. And even if they had burned up the phone lines and emails blasting MP & CStone, what makes you think anyone there would have listened?

    As you yourself have said, MP makes you think that CStone is the only place that God "dwells" in because of the hyped up atmosphere & the show from the platform. It is a painful & difficult thing to leave, no matter what anyone tells you about it. I know, my family & friends tried to "warn" me for years, but I continually spoke of all the good that CStone does & refuted all that family & friends told me.

    My leaving came after months & months of feeling that something was amiss there & it wasn't the Spirit of God that was in the midst, but a perverse and deceptive spirit that had taken over due to MP's pride. Not only that, but we always warn our children to be careful who they associate with as they become like those they associate with & bad company corrupts good & moral character.

    Better look at all who MP runs with in his inner circle, particularly Eddie Long & David Huskins among others. David Huskins is a Dominion/Kingdom Now theology person and Eddie Long, where do we begin? They all believe in universalism meaning all go to heaven in the end. They are also strong believers of fathering headship & sons & daughters of the house. Whatever happened to we are all brotheres & sisters in Christ? No earthly minister is my father or "pappa". That sounds very Catholic & religious. Funny how CStoninans don't see that.

    I have notebooks full of notes from my nearly 20 years at CStone & I can go back and find where MP & RP and others have subtly woven that theology into their messages. You have to be looking for it. Better yet, you have to know what it is first to look for it.

    A close relative of mine who is a pastor told me about it just before I left. It took me quite awhile before I actually researched it for myself & then realized I did not agree with it as it is not biblical. We are not going to rule & reign on this earth before Jesus returns, yet that is what MP would have his followers believe. "We" (they) are to take dominion & authority over all the demonic principalities & powers in the earth today. Good luck on that one. Read your Bible & see what the hearts of people will be like before Jesus returns. It's not all going to be good!

    So, to wrap this up, people need to look at the Bible for themselves & change their spiritual diets from time to time. Even MP has said that too much of the same food can make you sick. Besides that if you never venture outside the camp, you don't know what else is out there.

    Oh yea, MP tells you not to be selfish & do that, but to be mature and serve the vision of the house only, for the next generation ... whatever. Such an angry tone he had today to guilt his flock into serving his vision & stop thinking selfishly about what they want. My, my, my the dysfunctional must rule by guilting others into doing what they want & need. Talk about selfish....

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  63. movin on- This will address your first question
    "so why do you fault the Maus's as cowardly for leaving in the manner they did?" As I said I fault them only if they left because they saw problems with the leadership and teachings, if they left for other reasons then I don't think they were cowards I think they were clueless. But if they left because of things they saw or know about they owe it to people to come out because they were a cog in that machine, in their hard work they gave support and substance to the teachings of MP, and when they realized the truth they walked away as if they were just people sitting in the pews, and not part of the leadership. Now if all the people here can find a venue to talk about the failings of CC, (and there are other places) they to could have found a platform. And as I have said I respect both Maus and Martinez as men of God, and both seem like great guys, but both were part of the machine called CC. I think they owe to tell people how they were fooled, and what they finally realized was the truth.

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  64. Sorry for the break but I had business to attend to. But the other important question you ask is if Maus and Martinez were to speak out do I think anyone would hear them. I have already answered this question above, probably not, however thats not the point. The point is that speaking out is the right thing to do, whether everyone hears them or no one hears them, doing the right thing is not contingent on how many people hear or see you doing it.
    Of course maybe it is like I have heard that Martinez left just because he wanted to return to where he was from, and the Maus incident was because he was upset that he wasn't made a Pastor when others were elevated to that status who did not deserve it. (I don't believe either of those reasons but I have heard them both). But if people believe those reasons, then they believe that Maus and Martinez still believe in the CC religion, and that MP let Martinez go with his blessing, and Maus left because he was jaealous.

    Moving on - I don't know why I confuse and amaze you. I have varying opinions and feelings about Martinez and Maus, based on different actions I have seen them doing, No one action defines either of these men, so I express my opinion and feelings about individual actions, I think them leaving took courage, walking away silently and not being a good shepard because you are told to keep quiet I found to be the action of a coward. In Martinez I saw a strong Pastor for delievering the word of God (assuming he found the right words) and Maus I recognize as doing great works in the childrens ministery). And I can hold all these opinions and still have love and respect for both Maus and Martinez, my respect for them will not hide their flaws from me, nor will I allow the flaws I see in them overshadow the good I see in them, in the end they are all I know about them and more.

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  65. People of God: Tough as it may be, you need to
    only consider the voice of the Holy Spirit when you make your decision to leave any abusive church or pastor.
    When any church enters into false doctrine and pastor worship and they start to overlook sin
    and excuse it and they do not be confronted with truth...you are in an abusive church.
    Remember, Jesus Christ is the head of His church..not MP or RP. Once you get those lines blurred, you are being deceived and you need to flee. However, if you have itching ears and want to gather to yourself pastors and prophets that speak what your flesh wants to hear, you stay at your own peril and loss.
    Remember, you are not answering to RP or MP at the judgment but rather to Jesus Christ as to what you did and how you did it.
    You will not have any excuse that you were simply following leadership. Wrong answer! Unless you can show that you were following godly leadership, you have no excuse. Especially so in light of many, many words in the N.T. about the qualifications of church leadership and the fruit of the Holy Spirit.
    God has already given us a template of what we can compare the acts and fruits of MP and RP against and if they are found wanting and are not
    willing to humble themselves and repent...you must leave. No option.
    Remember you are part of that royal priesthood and neither RP or MP have any special or unique standing with God because at the foot of the Cross all ground is equal.
    If you are caught up in the music at Cornerstone or the friendships or the "activities" that
    attract you, that is not a good enough answer to stay around for the "circus" acts and "charismatic preaching."
    Those are not hallmarks of a Spirit lead church but rather Jesus being lifted up and you are continuously being led to Jesus as the author and perfecter of your faith...not MP or RP.
    Is it tough to leave? yes, but it is also tougher to stay around and hope for a change and none comes.
    Pray and follow what is said and do not listen to the dire threats of doom and gloom thrown from the pulpit on those who leave. That is clear mark of a cult.
    I have left a church that had earmarks of that nonsense (Upton UMC...Pastor Pat McKinstry) and
    believe me, freedom is worth it.
    Contend for the faith! If you want to contact me, please do so. Tolliver@Juno.com.
    I place my name and contact information because I do not fear the shenanigans of pulpit pimps or
    their glares or imprecations. When you are free in Christ, you can laugh at their gibberish and nonsense and money grubbing schemes and "veiled"
    threats of doom and gloom for anyone who challenges leadership (they always use that twisted scripture: Touch not my anointed and do my prophets no harm!)
    Be Blessed and fight the good fight of faith and remember, there is life when you come out of an abusive relationship. God never intended for the sheep that he purchased with his shed blood to be abused by false shepherds and false apostles and false prophets who merchandise the sheep to build their own earthly kingdom and with a veneer of giving to charities to throw you off that they are doing godly acts of charity but yet keep 90 percent of the monies! What a ripoff!

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  66. Lafe,
    Your response is so helpful and enlightening. If you don't mind me asking, are you currently attending a church and if so which one?

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  67. Lafe,
    Excellent comments. Spiritual maturity requires that we judge a church and its leaders based on the Word of God, not our feelings & emotions or the great music & activities offered.

    Every church has its good & bad points. There is no perfect church or church leader. However, one must look at the fruit of the leaders as well as their moral character & integrity or lack thereof.

    Integrity is essential. Once a person's integrity is in question, doubt & distrust enter in & nothing good comes from a lack of trust. Relationships become strained. How can people be expected to stay in a church under leadership that lacks integrity? When a leader is in the news multiple times for a variety of offenses, red flags should go up & the members should be asking themselves is this what a man of God should be doing? Does he qualify under the scriptural qualifications for the office that he holds? If not, then it's time to move on & find a place where Jesus is glorified & not a man & his gifting.

    Sure, good things may occur at MP's empire, but the glory & credit should go to God, not MP & his dishonest posse. If one has to preach messages that tear down others & judges others as being against them continually, I think there is something seriously wrong. Either that person is extremely paranoid & delusional or thinks way to highly of themself.

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  68. My dear fellow Brothers (Family) in Christ. I ended up reading this blog or part thereof because of a sermon I heard tonight (20 March 2011) at a church in East London, South Africa by Bishop Pitts. I could not resist the unrest in my spirit about the none-Biblical teaching that I heart. That’s how I ended up reading the blog and some info on the Bishop.

    In reading Sonlight 29’s writing, I could have written my own story, but it would be a replica of S29’s writing.

    I want to conclude by the following. I once spoke to by 81 year old father who has been a minister in a Pentecostal/charismatic church in South Africa and I really honour him for being a shepherd of sheep in mostly smaller (200-400+) churches. In our conversation, I said to him that I will never ever put anyone, including him between myself and a relationship with God. We were all supposed to be co-workers in the gospel of Jesus Christ (1Cor 3:9 For we are labourers together with God: ye are God's husbandry, ye are God's building). My Dad agreed.

    There are many preachers that I honour in the ministry as well as simple sincere and dear brothers and sisters in Christ Jesus, but never again will I put any of them on a pedestal or eat their teachings up as the true Gospel.

    I agree with the writer to hear from God. My wilderness experience lasted for a long time and I went through a similar experience realising the truth of the Word in Jeremiah 17:5 Thus saith the LORD; Cursed be the man that trusteth in man, and maketh flesh his arm, and whose heart departeth from the LORD.

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  69. Wow, powerful comments all the way from Africa. It appears that Michael can run, but he can't hide.

    His message is being questioned and put to the test on this blog in this city by former members and current members. I guess Michael thinks he can go to other parts of the world and carry on with his unbiblical teachings with unsuspecting souls and take advantage of them for his personal gain.

    We need to keep speaking out against false teachers and teachings hidden under the guise of the anointing and "revelation".

    Thank you Allan (SA)for speaking out and hopefully alerting those in South Africa that all is not as it appears with the good Bishop Pitts and his teaching and lifestyle.

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  70. I'd be interested to know what it was that he preached in South Africa...

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